How to Hire Your Next Team Member with Katrina Kibben

Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:00:00]   All right. Hey there and welcome to episode 10 of We Can Do This. I really can't believe that we are crossing the 10 episode mark of this podcast. So thank you to everyone who has been listening, and if you haven't reached out yet  just to say hello it'd be really awesome to put some faces to some of the listeners of the show. Now, today I'm really looking forward to this episode with Katrina Kibben.

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0:00:30] Katrina is the founder of Three Ears Media, and is also a keynote speaker, trainer, and writing expert who teaches hiring teams, how to write job postings. Now, if you've ever tried to sit down and write a job posting, it is incredibly difficult.

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0:00:44]I actually know that cause I'm putting together two positions right now and finding the right words to communicate what you need and what problem this person is solving is actually really difficult. And to think that you need to write job postings that people will actually read and be able to discover online is actually really difficult. So Katrina is going to talk to us all about this and really give us a roadmap to follow. What kind of questions to ask yourself? How to write a job description, how to write the right title for the job description so people actually identify with what role they're looking for, all of these things and more are in the episode.

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0:01:21]So sit tight because this is a really great episode.  And I imagine, if you're listening to this episode, you're building something, right. You're building a company, building an organization, building some sort of initiative, and for most people, the goal is to build something that goes beyond yourself, right. It isn't tied to your own time. So what that means is we're going to be hiring people, right? We're going to be bringing on team members, even if it's volunteers, knowing what volunteers to bring on. So this podcast is really relevant to nearly everyone that is going to be listening. And you're going to leave with some really great tips tactics. And like I said, that really roadmap to follow and Katrina has a ton of really great resources on their website to help you cover all the bases. So let's jump in to this episode with Katrina Kibben.

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0:02:22]All right. Hey there. And welcome to the podcast. Today I am here with Katrina Kibben.  Katrina is a keynote speaker, trainer, and writing expert who teaches hiring teams, how to write job postings that attract the right people to your company.  After over 15 years of corporate copywriting and training experience, Katrina knows how to inspire from onstage and offers practical tips and common sense takeaways that make talent teams better writers.

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0:02:48] Katrina's human approach to hiring inspires audiences to write for people instead of following best-in-class baselines that don't help candidates on the other side of the equation. They take a unique strategic approach to help companies rewrite candidate experience content, overhaul job descriptions, and attract more qualified applicants.

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0:03:07] Katrina has been named a top HR and recruiting influencer and is a featured expert in publications like the New York Times, the Chicago Tribune, and SHRM National. Before founding Three Ears Media, Katrina was a CMO, a technical copywriter, and the managing editor for leading HR media and technology companies like Monster.com, Care.com and Randstad worldwide.

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0:03:31]When not speaking, writing or training, you'll find Katrina arranging flowers or hiking with the inspirations behind the name Three Ears Media, Katrina's two dogs named Lyric and Ruby. So Katrina, welcome to the podcast.

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0:03:45] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:03:45] Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. 

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0:03:47]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:03:47] Yeah. So first of all, after reading your bio, you talk about the inspiration behind your company. I don't think I've ever heard the full story. Do you want to share a little bit about that?

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0:03:56] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:03:56] Yeah. So I jokingly tell people that everyone should name their company after their dogs, because it gives you full privilege to put pictures of your dogs on everything.

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0:04:06]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:04:06] There you go. 

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0:04:07]Katrina Kibben: 

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0:04:07] But that's not why I named the company Three Ears Media. So Three Ears Media is named after two dogs with four ears, but my dog Lyric has one big ear that stands up and her other ears lays down.

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0:04:21] And my little Boston Terrier, Ruby has two ears that always stand up. And the two of them are attached at the hip. Ruby didn't learn to walk for the first six months of her life. And so Lyric very much became kind of a support dog for Ruby. And when I started my company full transparency, it was not some big life plan coming into fruition or was it well-planned, it was a matter of two weeks.

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0:04:48] And I remember doing a spin. I'm not even joking. I did a spin in my chair and I saw the dogs and I was like, that's it we're Three Ears Media. 

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0:04:57]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:04:57] Okay. That's amazing. That is a much more interesting than my own yeah, when I got similar, I just kinda like jumped off the cliff and started my business the same way and my company name is not even worth mentioning. It's so boring and legally. 

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0:05:12]So if I had a dog at the time, I probably, maybe I could have done that too.

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0:05:16]Katrina Kibben: 

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0:05:16] Between you and me. I totally lied about the name for the first little bit of starting the company. Right. I was like Three Media it means we listen more. I realized everybody loves dogs. Not everybody loves fables, like stick with it. 

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0:05:30]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:05:30] Yeah.

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0:05:30] Yeah. I like, I like the dog story. But thanks for being on the podcast today for everyone listening Katrina and I met a couple of years ago in a mastermind group and have stayed connected  and I've really loved Katrina's work. Katrina works in the HR and recruiting space, which I don't know anyone else that works in that space.

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0:05:46]But more so importantly, I don't know anyone that makes that space sound interesting or worth caring about or worth really listening to. I love Katrina's content on social media and Katrina writes a newsletter and just great content there. So I really wanted to share it with you today.

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0:06:03] And so Katrina, if you want to tell us how did you get into this world of both like HR and recruiting, but also like copywriting and job descriptions.

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0:06:12] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:06:12] Absolutely. So I always wanted to be a writer, but I didn't quite know how I would get paid to do that. And growing up in a family of military teachers. There wasn't a lot of thinking outside of the box. So this surely was not on anyone's roadmap when I was young and it wasn't on mine either. I thought I would grow up to be a teacher.

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0:06:34] And so I went to school for communications and I worked at an ad agency and that's where I got my first dose of copywriting because I realized that great ads are not just. The beautiful image. You see, it's being able to communicate a feeling and words, not paragraphs. and I fell in love with that idea.

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0:06:55] I loved clarity and creativity and making that part of my work. And so I did not end up getting a job at the ad agency. I actually ended up working at a subsidiary of Kaplan tutoring, where I taught kids 4 to 14, how to read and like, okay, how did you get into recruiting from there? Well, I taught a little girl named Hope how to read.

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0:07:20]There's no irony in that name because her dad walked in one day and I kind of did this whole sale shpeal for him. And at the end of the meeting, he gave me a really weird look and I'm like, what? I didn't have a lot of business class at the time. I was 21 and still drinking weeknights. And he said to me, you know, I don't know what you're going to do, but you're going to work for me.

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0:07:41] I'll teach you. You changed my life that day, I worked at a company that was basically LinkedIn without the networking component. So it was a great idea. How can we take the resume online? How do we create connection that way? But we missed that one key element, the connection. So that kind of set me off on my path to becoming a CML.

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0:08:05] And I worked my way up with HR technology vendor, first learning how to communicate with both sides, the recruiter and the candidate. And when I got to become a CMO, I hated it. I hated it so much because I didn't get to do any of the creating anymore.  All I did was sit in a room and have people present ideas to me that I thought were okay, but not great.

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0:08:26] And give them thumbs up, thumbs down when all I wanted to do was  And so I decided to take a step in a very different direction. Tell me if you have ever met anyone else with this career path, CMO, managing editor, technical copywriter, CEO. 

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0:08:44]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:08:44] Yeah. 

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0:08:45]Katrina Kibben: 

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0:08:45] It's different, but the truth I've always had this, I guess, passion for how we tell a story.

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0:08:54] And I realized very early on that in recruiting, so many of those problems could be solved by better writing.  And so I started by getting my PhD in recruiting, becoming a managing editor. All I did was read and write about recruiting. I learned a lot. But then I wanted to do it and that's, what's been the last chunk of my career.

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0:09:14] And what really led me here was  being a technical copywriter for these enormous companies and realizing that we could translate a feeling that you get every time you walk in into copy that tells the truth,  tells a real story that lets someone on the other side know if they want to do this work, and if they can.

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0:09:38] And that was really where Three Ears Media came from is this idea that if we can effectively talk about jobs in a job posting and an email, a career site, that we can create access to work for people of all backgrounds  and remove so many of the barriers that have kept talented people out of communities and work where they belong. 

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0:10:03]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:10:03] Yeah.

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0:10:04] Oh, that's so good. So a lot of our listeners, I mean, very few of our listeners actually feel like they should be freelancers forever. We might have some freelancers that are listening, but most people listening to this podcast are either starting a business or have their eyes set on taking their existing business and growing it beyond them.

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0:10:25] Right.  And some people might be in companies, and they might be hiring employees or, you know, managing that process. So I'm really excited to have you on the show today because everyone who's really listening is going to someday, maybe now, maybe in the future  be hiring someone.

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0:10:41]They're looking to expand and grow a team or take this team and make it even larger. Right?  So this is like such a relevant topic for our listeners and even personally, and selfishly, you know, one of the other reasons why I really want to have you on this because I'm in this process right now, I'm writing job descriptions for, for new hires for my own company.

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0:10:59] So I really curious to hear your thoughts today and what you share within your programs and your one-on-one coaching. I know you do, you do. Actually like job posting rewrites, which we can talk about later too.  So say you're maybe someone listening to this podcast today and you have identified that you are ready to expand your team, right?

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0:11:22] You're either adding an assistant, you're adding some sort of, you know, job function to your team. 

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0:11:27]What kind of questions should we be asking ourselves before we even begin writing the job posting, getting it out there? What are the kinds of questions that we should be asking ourselves?

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0:11:35]Katrina Kibben: 

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0:11:35] I really appreciate that you're, saying, what questions should we be asking ourselves? Because I think most entrepreneurs start with answers and you say, I need this job title. No, you don't, you're hiring someone to accomplish something and really tell people, take one big step back.  And the first question I want you to ask yourself is if I make the best hire ever, they are amazing,

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0:12:02] I want to work with them for the rest of my life.  What's going to be happening in six months that's not happening right now. Start there by really designing the future, understanding what success looks like. Then you can start to understand who they are, the job title,  and ultimately what you'll write in the job posting to get their attention to the first place. 

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0:12:26] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:12:26] Hmm.  So it sounds like there's gotta be some sort of pain that we're experiencing right now in order to say, Hey, I want to actually like take the money. I could be putting towards something or it could be taking as profit and actually reinvesting in the company to solve this pain that I'm experiencing.

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0:12:42] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:12:42] Exactly. It also often aligns with acceleration or simplification. So looking at opportunities to take your model and accelerate a profitable area of your business, or simplify a process that's not working well right now. In fact, that simplification is exactly why I hired my first virtual assistant. I realized that everything I was doing was very replicable, but I had not created the replicable elements to make my life easy. So that goal was I want my systems to be more simple in six months. And that gave me a lot of clarity about the person who would sit in that role because it wasn't your traditional virtual assistant. 

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0:13:28] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:13:28] There's probably some people listening that either gravitate in one of those directions, like, am I looking to like accelerate things? I'm always trying to add on things and try to figure out how to, you know, kind of grow in that way.  And there's some of us, I probably fall in this category of like, I just always want to simplify things, all the routine things that we do every single week.

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0:13:45] I'm like, how do I, how do I earn time back in my life? But yeah, those are two really important things to think about too.

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0:13:51] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:13:51] Yeah. And what's taking you away from revenue generating actions, right? So my second hire was someone to do marketing because I realized I was spending 15 to 20% of my week working on marketing. And while eventually I could align a lot of that to revenue. It wasn't instant. There was a higher value in me sitting on a sales call than there was me spending 30 minutes scheduling tweets.

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0:14:18] Right. It's easy math. When you actually take a step back and look at it. 

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0:14:23]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:14:23] Yeah and we may have done this exercise together of like the four quadrants where you talk about the things that you're good at and you love to do the things that you aren't so good at, but you like doing, it's like a distraction.

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0:14:33] What are the things that you don't like doing, but you kind of good at it. And then what are the things you're just, you're God awful at and it's, you just shouldn't be doing, 

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0:14:41] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:14:41] And for me personally, the like to do, but it's a distraction box is the hardest one for me. Because when I look at profitability in my business, that's always the opportunity area. And at the same time, it's very easy to lean into the wrong things. And I feel like that's why this there's so much value. To taking the time upfront to ask the right questions and get that job posting.

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0:15:08] Right. So that you don't have to worry that you missed something.  

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0:15:13] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:15:13] Yeah. So say we're beginning to ask these questions. We're saying. All right. What is the pain point or what is the thing that is distracting me? And I'm trying to identify that so I can kind of outsource that or bring someone on the team that  take care of that.   Or we're just looking to like really the streamline, what we're doing.

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0:15:31] And I need someone to come alongside me and maybe do some administrative tasks. So I'm not stuck in administration or something like this. We've identified. Hey, I, I really. 

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0:15:40]Can clearly articulate the problem that I'm experiencing right now that this potential hire might be able to solve for me.  So we've answered some of these questions.

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0:15:50] What would be, what would be next?

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0:15:53] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:15:53] It's time to write a job posting. And so there's a lot to it. Full transparency. I spent the last three years running a company that 90% of what we do right

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0:16:04] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:16:04] Yeah. Yeah. 

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0:16:05] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:16:05] now, I'm going to give everyone the simple version though. The first thing a job posting has, and this is literally the first sentence is the impact of this person.

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0:16:15] What can you not do  if they don't work here?  So let me give you an example. The virtual assistant  as our virtual assistant, you'll help us streamline systems so we can grow.  We can't grow without that action, right? It's that simple. What's the impact of this person? The six month answer.  Next thing you're going to do is list three things that person will do every single day.

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0:16:42] And the reason I do that is because I want us to be on the same page about three things, the most important three things, or I don't want you to keep reading. I want to  you an opt-out sentence two it literally says every day you will, this, this and this, 

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0:16:59]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:16:59] Yeah.

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0:16:59] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:16:59] and the final sentence is to thrive in this role you must, what do you absolutely 100% no negotiating you have to know how to do, to do this job every day. 

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0:17:14]If you can accomplish just that you have written a job posting that is 80% better than everyone else's. 

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0:17:20]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:17:20] Yeah.

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0:17:21] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:17:21] Good. You're there next. You want to include something about your company? It can be its own paragraph.

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0:17:27] It can be one sentence. I don't care, but you need to give them something. 

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0:17:30] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:17:30] Yeah, where am I working? Why would I want to work, here? 

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0:17:33] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:17:33] Right? It has a creep factor when you skip that part, 

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0:17:37] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:17:37] Yeah. 

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0:17:38] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:17:38] you need a little detail. 

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0:17:40] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:17:40] Yep. 

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0:17:40] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:17:40] The next paragraph. The next area is what you've seen on a million different job postings. And it's typically called requirements, but you're going to take a different approach. 

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0:17:50] You're going to make a list. And then the subheading of that is not going to be generic. It's actually going to tell them why the list exists. So let me give you two examples. The first one could be here's what a typical day in the life might look like. Great. Give me five bullets. That tell you what a typical day in the life might look like, because we're going to set really good expectations about what this job is, or if this is I'm the one who's really focused on that end goal, right?

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0:18:17] You have something big for them. Maybe they're in sales or marketing in the next six months. This is how we'll measure your success. List the things that you already wrote down from the original thought process, the answers to those original questions. The reason we ask those questions is so that it's really easy to pull this job post together because you've already answered all of the critical elements that you need to build it.

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0:18:44]One note I would make is that it's very easy to go crazy. sudden your job posting starts looking like some rich kids wishlist and you're Like a pony, a rainbow. Ooh, 

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0:18:54]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:18:54] Yeah like bullet point city bullet point 

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0:18:56] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:18:56] Exactly. No more than seven. That's your limit. I want seven bullets or less. And here's why there's a group called Textio that does analysis on language and really understanding how it influences outcomes.

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0:19:10] When you're posting is more than one-third bullets it psychologically influences women black indigenous, and people of color not to apply because traditionally requirements have been stacked up against these groups to tell them you're not going to work out here. It's our bias coming out in our technique. 

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0:19:34] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:19:34] Wow. 

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0:19:35] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:19:35] And so one third visually, or seven bullets is your new rule of thumb? No more. 

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0:19:42] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:19:42] Yeah. Even like, just hearing you share, share, and this, he said there's like the simpler version, I think I have like every other job posting, I feel like I've read. I remember when I was back in the day when I was like applying for jobs and even now as I'm like, I'm probably guilty of this as I'm starting to write my own postings  is every posting feels like it reads, like someone took a job posting and like copied it and then filled in the blanks and like did theirs.

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0:20:04] And then someone copied that one and pasted it and then someone copied it in that one. And it just has gone through this like telephone game of everyone's just like copied someone's template. And it just turned into something like corporate-y non authentic like nothing. I wouldn't want to be a part of.

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0:20:21] And just the questions that you're having us ask right here, or like kind of like these statements or bullet points is already make me like, think that this role is desirable, even though it's. You've removed a lot of the junk right? It's just like the simple bare bones of like, this is what you need to have.

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0:20:40] This is what you need to be interested in. And yeah, I love this so far.

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0:20:45] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:20:45] The goal of a job posting is not to communicate every single detail that everyone could possibly need to know to have this job. The goal of the job posting is to communicate enough information so that anyone, I mean, a stranger on the street, you could walk up to out of the blue and go read this. They can say, yes, I can do this work.

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0:21:10] Yes. I want to, or no, I can't. No, I don't want to, if you accomplish just that someone can read this and say yes or no, you've done enough. And I can promise you if you start by copying and pasting someone else's job posting you have already failed yourself. These recommendations are very researched.

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0:21:32] So as I've been working through this and learning this skill,  I completed a 100 year study of job postings. I went to each decade because I had a hypothesis that our technique was driving more of the bias than our language. There's a lot of technology in the market right now who will tell you it's all linguistics.

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0:21:56] This is a boy word, and this is a girl word. And you used too many boy words. So you're only going to attract men, which is actually true. They have studies to prove that. However, there's another dimension here.  And it's about our technique. And you just mentioned it, right? It looks like everyone's been copying and pasting each other for the last 100 years.

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0:22:18] Well guess what? That's true. Well, that's scary because I don't know about you, but I would not want to live in 1920. And the bias that was used to hire in 1920 still exists in job postings today. If you're going to take the same old tactics. 

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0:22:34]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:22:34] Oh, that's so fascinating. I just, that just made me think of, I actually had a F a friend like my best friend texted me last week and he had to put together some sort of a resume or something and he was asking what things should I avoid? So that like the AI HR programs or something, don't like just automatically toss my resume out. And that just made me think like, oh my gosh, like it's been a while since I've applied for a job. And there's just so much, that's like getting in the way of recruiters or companies getting postings out as well as like actually the applicants from being able to actually submit a resume, knowing that it's going to get like read or seen.

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0:23:16]Katrina Kibben: 

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0:23:16] And just for any job seekers who are listening that whole idea behind getting auto rejected because of something in your resume, that's not a real thing. So. The reason you get rejected automatically is typically an input that you make in addition to your upload. So let me give you an example of an auto rejections system.

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0:23:39]You enter your zip code of where you live  and the system automatically has a rejection set up because they expect the person to be in office that if your commute is too long, you get kicked out. 

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0:23:54]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:23:54] Oh, really? 

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0:23:56] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:23:56] Yes, those rejection systems aren't smart. They can't understand and they don't try to.  What they do is they take the mathematical inputs that you do give, and that's what they use to auto reject.

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0:24:12] It's actually not the content on your resume. 

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0:24:14]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:24:14] Wow. Unreal. It just seems like there's between that plus just like how people are just the average job posting, is just terrible? It just seems like it's no wonder it's so difficult for companies to actually get the kind of talent that they're hoping for.

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0:24:29] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:24:29] Well, even worse, right? These entrepreneurs, we've never been trained to write job postings. I'm in a niche because literally that's all I do every day. But. I've never met another one of me that's for damn sure. Right. And so we're going into it blind, like for example, how do you pick a job title? Most entrepreneurs have no idea how to do that.

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0:24:49] And here's the thing. If you don't pick the right job title, you'll never be found. And so I did extensive research into how candidates look for work. So entrepreneurs get your pen. If you do not know how to write a job title or pick one right now. So the first thing you should know is all job titles are made up.

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0:25:05]And you're about to make one up,  but the first thing you're going to do is take a guess. So go on Google and search the job title that you think this person should have and the word resume hit enter and go to the image search results. There, you will find a bajillion resumes. If you would not hire one of the first 10 people, you probably have the wrong job title.

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0:25:27] As you start to narrow it down and you get it right, I want you to look for alternative job titles. What else were they called at other companies?  And with that information, you go over to a tool called Google trends, T R E N D S. And you type in each of the job titles, it will literally tell you how popular each one is and you want to pick the most popular one. That advice alone will completely change your pipeline  because job titles are part of our identity. Right? Back in the day when I was the CMO, mind you, I was 29. So I was super into it, right? I, I told everybody I was a CMO. Your title is your identity in this world.

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0:26:06] What's the first question people ask you when they meet you. "Hey what do you do?" 

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0:26:09] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:26:09] What do you do? 

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0:26:10] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:26:10] Right. We have to get the job titles right. And so even just that one tip, I feel like that can help everybody really get the right person to see it because like a tree falling in the forest, if no one sees your posting, it  doesn't matter how good it is. 

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0:26:28]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:26:28] Yeah. Oh, I love it. I mean, that's like so simple. Such a simple thing that people can do and just get the job title right. Because I'm imagining for the people who are searching for job openings. They need to be able to discover it. But also if they find one that  maybe they're qualified technically for, and maybe it's something that would be like a bullseye  job for them.

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0:26:51] But if they can't like self-identify with the actual posting or like role that they would be walking into, it just totally missed the mark, then you're gonna miss out on great talent.

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0:26:59] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:26:59] You nailed it whenever I'm presenting this to a room full of talent, acquisition recruiters, right. I'll ask. All right. Who here would apply to a recruiting associates job? If your current title is director of recruiting. 

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0:27:14] No hands go up. Well, what if I tell you, that's just how we titled it at our company.

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0:27:19] It's actually a director of recruiting role anywhere else. It's just what we call it. And they're just laughing at me because no, no, you have to get the job title right. 

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0:27:28]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:27:28] So that's even making me think of like, you know, past jobs that I've had or past jobs that friends of mine have had in some companies. I mean, this is, I imagine this is a thing that's some people actually give people job titles as a way to kind of keep them in so that they can't move on to another company because they don't want them to be using a more senior type job title.

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0:27:49] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:27:49] Exactly.  One of my first corporate jobs, I worked at monster.com and I was a social media ninja", and I will never forget the day a recruiter called me and he goes, what the hell does a ninja do? 

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0:28:01]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:28:01] Oh, my God. It's like a trigger word. I can't stand the word.

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0:28:04] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:28:04] I got lucky because the company that he was recruiting me to, they just wanted people worked at monster.com.

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0:28:12] So the guy called me anyway. But in reality, you actually put your team at a significant disadvantage when you make up a job titles. There are no gurus. There are no samurais. You don't want a rockstar to show up. They're usually hung over and really tired, like. Stop creativity. 

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0:28:31] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:28:31] I love it. Yeah. Be clear. Be accurate. Don't get all cute or cliche and I love it. 

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0:28:39] Awesome. Okay. So I mean, the exercise alone was probably worth someone listening to this episode and saying, I'm just gonna get the job title right. 

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0:28:46]Okay. So we have the job title then now, now what do we do?

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0:28:50] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:28:50] Yeah. So I'm assuming you're going to post it out. The first thing I would do as entrepreneurs, I'm assuming that you have a decent network. Most people who start a company start because they know they have someone in their network that can help them, and so I would take that first paragraph we talked about the three sentences, the impact everyday life, and to thrive in this role, I would share that on your social media, traditionally, I would post it on LinkedIn, but of course it depends on the role. And I would say, "who did you think of?" Post it out there. Don't say I'm hiring a job title. Who? No. I want you to say, who do you think of when I say this and post that paragraph? See what comes up, do not go out and pay for traffic first because referrals are the number one source of qualified employees that stay. They have a 70% more likelihood to work out.

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0:29:51] And I want to say in the thirties or 40%, that would make them stay longer than the average person. Start there. 

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0:29:59] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:29:59] So someone going through this, you know, going through a referral or something, having that coming your way through a strong contact or something, you may be able to avoid even like paying for any exposure or even going through the lengths of like uploading these to like several job boards.

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0:30:15]Katrina Kibben: 

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0:30:15] Exactly. Never start on job boards. Cause remember that's, that's like throwing a penny in a lake and being like, I'm going to find it. Right. You are up against some of the biggest companies in the world with the biggest budgets in the world, side-by-side and that's not a competition I want to go into.

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0:30:36] Not right now. There's too much demand for work. I mean, how many companies are talking about how they can't hire anyone and they have so many roles that are going unfilled, you're one of them. 

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0:30:48] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:30:48] I'm even thinking like every job I've ever had has been through a referral. I've never like applied through a website or anything. 

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0:30:55] And I imagine that could almost be telling in some ways of, if you're actually are sharing through your network or something, and you're not getting any bites there might be something wrong with this position or this job description, or like why wouldn't people refer? Like, is there something about your company that isn't, I don't want, I want, to refer anyone to work there.

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0:31:14]Katrina Kibben: 

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0:31:14] Yes. The second place that I've had a lot of success, as far as hiring is I've used my marketing channels.  So I wrote a blog about the proofreader I was hiring. I wrote an email to my audience. And the cool part is that your fans are so excited that you're growing. They cannot wait to help you with a referral.

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0:31:37]So I sent out an email and I got 82 applications in few hours from friends, people I already trust and people who already read my work, know what we do, know how we do it, that we're not super stuck up. Right. I don't have to explain anything to them. I just have to tell them I'm hiring. Cause they already know me.

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0:31:59]Honestly, I've never had to go the next step, which is post to some kind of job board or community board. If you use your marketing channels and really focus on those referrals, you will find great candidates. 

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0:32:10]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:32:10] Yeah, that's fantastic. It reminds me, I, I saw someone I follow on Twitter posted a job posting the other day and they got like 300 retweets. It was just like mind blowing the person the next day tweeted. I just got way more applicants that I needed. So thanks everyone for retweeting sharing. So I like that with the marketing channel approach. That gives people the ability to share  that tweet, that facebook posts or whatever, to someone who would be a good applicant.

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0:32:37] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:32:37] Yes. Here's the fair warning because I've made this mistake gloriously. Just because I'm an expert in recruiting doesn't mean I do everything right the first time. I've tweeted a job without enough clarity and I've gotten a lot of unqualified applications. 

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0:32:52]So. 

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0:32:53] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:32:53] through all 

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0:32:54] these. 

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0:32:54] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:32:54] Well, 

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0:32:55] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:32:55] Yep. 

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0:32:55] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:32:55] Exactly Sean. So I would say two things. One be very, very thoughtful about what you say and be very explicit in that, but to only share it on channels where there is a good feedback mechanism. So like for me, I use Twitter because I feel like there's a really good feedback mechanism. I can read the @'s and there's DMS.  If I post something on my blog, there's not a great mechanism unless I create one. A form, an email, a whatever. So just be thoughtful and also to your preference, some people don't like digging through DMs, right?

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0:33:30] I prefer to get things in my email so that I can stay organized and I can have my team help me. So think about that side too, because you should be responding and actually talking to every person who applies, whether they get an interview or not. 

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0:33:44]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:33:44] Okay. So it sounds like if we essentially follow what you have laid out here so far for us the. You know, the win would be, we open up our email preferred channels, like you said, and we just have a stack of qualified applicants. Right. And now we're ready to kind of begin this interview process.

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0:34:03] Like it's actually it's happening now. We find the, find the candidates. Yeah. We're ready to jump on. Who knows what it is these days? A zoom call. A phone call. It might be in person. How do we approach this now that we have hopefully these, you know, really qualified candidates in front of us.

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0:34:17] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:34:17] All right. So we're going back to our questions again,  and we're going back to those deal breakers. What are the must have you must have experienced doing X, working with Y doing whatever, right? Put that in an Excel sheet, down the left column. List those things out. What are the absolute must have to get this, then I want you to go through each one of those.

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0:34:42]Actually put them across the top. I always mix up these things across the top Then the names down the left. side, go through each one and see if they meet all criteria. That's number one. Don't look for anything else. No nice to have no little notes. Ideally it is not the person making the hire. So for me, my business manager reviews all applications before I am presented with the slate.

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0:35:08] And a slate is a list of only qualified people. Right.

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0:35:13]And So first things first, make sure they meet the minimum qualifications before you get all biased over well, they went to my college and they got referred from so-and-so and no make sure that choice is made, then you're going to scale it down. Then at that point, take a second to message every person who's not getting an interview and to tell them we will not be having an interview. I know that feels hard and it feels like rejection, but please do it.

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0:35:40]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:35:40] Yeah. So needed. 

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0:35:42]Katrina Kibben: 

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0:35:42] Ghosting people is so much worse. Now you have a short list. We're going to start booking some phone screens. Book 30 minute phone screens, and you're going to ask them for examples of the time that they did all the things that they have to do to thrive.

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0:35:59] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:35:59] Hmm. 

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0:36:00]Katrina Kibben: 

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0:36:00] Again, we're going to shorten that list. So let's say you're at 10 at that point, you phone screen 10 for 30 minutes. We're going to cut that list down to three. The reason I do three is it's easier to make a decision than five seven nearly. I cut it down to three and then traditionally I will have them basically talk to anyone. And mind you, this is a small company. This does not apply to a big company. So if you work at some huge organization, do not do what I'm about to say. If you were one of like, my company is six people. So you will speak to anyone that you regularly engage with. So if you're a virtual assistant, you're going to speak to me and a project manager.

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0:36:45]If you're a bookkeeper, you're going to talk to the business manager and me. Right. And I'm thinking about who you're going to talk to at least twice a week. Those are the people you should be interviewing with. And then the people they interview with will sit down and have a conversation, just like the one Sean and I are having right now, we just talked through each person  that you're going to talk through the details.

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0:37:06] What do I think they will be great at? What do I think that they'll have to learn and decide what you're willing to teach? Then you make an offer. Keep it quick. 

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0:37:16]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:37:16] So to clarify, when you said. So let's say I'm hiring a designer and they're going to interface with a project manager a whole lot. So are they doing a, a call or an interview with me in that project manager or just the project manager?

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0:37:32] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:37:32] it depends on your style. So for me, I expect everyone to work autonomously. And we collaborate on the final project. So we would do like a brainstorm. Then you're kind of doing the work we review. That's my company. It's a value. It's how we operate. So to me, I want you to work with each person individually because that's how you will work with them. Versus let's say I was starting a consultancy and I took three consultants into every project and we traveled together, ate together, showed up to every meeting together every presentation together. We would do a group interview. 

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0:38:07] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:38:07] The whole thing. Got it. Awesome. Cool. Okay. And then. 

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0:38:11]We're getting down to the moment, right? You've extended this offer any quick tips on how to do that, or I love that you said make it quick, right? Like don't, don't make this some drawn out process.

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0:38:21] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:38:21] Because here's the reality, right? You have a certain level of urgency. And if someone really can't make an interview work on your timeline, they probably won't have the flexibility to work out in your company either. So set your calendar upfront these two weeks, you will make exceptions, but truly okay.

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0:38:39] These two weeks, I'm going to do these interviews. This four day window, I'll do this on the fifth day, we're going to do our meetup and on the Monday I'm making an offer. Right. You can do that. You're the boss. Stop we have to follow some like corporate America, Fortune hiring guide. We are the bosses. We get to decide.

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0:38:59] And I think when it comes to making the offer, I would reiterate. One work with your lawyers make sure that you have all your paperwork in order, make sure that you have all your contracts in order. Be smart. Make sure that that that hire does not influence your insurances or what you need. I'm very, very blessed to have a business manager who was a former HR person to teach me all of that.

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0:39:21]For example, workers' comp it prevents, let's say I have five contractors working for me pretty full time. A worker's comp policy can actually help prevent you from getting sued by those two contractors. So just, just a high level example. And so I would tell you one, make sure your paperwork is in order and make sure you understand your policies.

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0:39:41] And when you're communicating with them, be very, very explicit in the same way we were with the job posting. We will have a 90 day check-in at that point, I expect we will accomplish the following. Here's your pay. Here's the day we're starting. This is when you're onboarding right. Spell it all out. The way that I help people remember what to say in this moment is treat it like you're talking to your best friend and they asked you for help.

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0:40:07]What would you tell your best friend? Because often I think people forget details in the like trying to like button up their life. I don't even know how to explain it. Like 

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0:40:17] I'm going to be overly professional and the consequence is that they don't communicate the details they should. So always, write like you were talking to your best friend and they asked for help. 

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0:40:30]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:40:30] Got it. Oh, that's so good. And it, it gives a level of decency and just like this common courtesy of things that this person is actually going to need to know.

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0:40:37] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:40:37] Yes courtesy.

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0:40:37]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:40:37] That's so good. I love it. Okay. So, I mean, this has been. Incredible. Like, I'm sure I'm hoping people are like listening to this, writing down these things and they're going to like go write their job posting, like after our episode.

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0:40:50]So say I've listened through this whole episode and maybe I even started to do some of the things I've gone through, like step one, step two. And I'm like, I'm starting to I'm just overwhelmed at the, the job title part. I'm overwhelmed at the idea of like, 

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0:41:04]Sifting through these applications or something, if I'm still at a point of overwhelm, what do I do?

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0:41:10] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:41:10] Yeah. So I would tell you there's a self guided and there's a Katrina guided option. So the self guided option, if you go to bit.ly/freejobrewrite I have a tutorial book that'll walk you through how to write a job posting and just give you the little bit of extra detail that you might not get from listening on a podcast.

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0:41:30] I believe that everyone should be a job post expert, and I give away most of my ideas for free between that book, the Three Ears Media website and my YouTube channel. So feel free to like go on your journey. If you're feeling budget 

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0:41:43] Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:41:43] yeah, go wild, but consume everything. 

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0:41:46] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:41:46] Go crazy. If you want to do it in an hour, you call me. And so what I do is what I call a one-on-one job rewrite session.

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0:41:56] And what we do is we spend 30 minutes with me asking you those questions.  I'll write the things down and you can ask me questions too.  You can ask me, you know, is this a manager or director or is it realistic for me to find someone with all these skills and I can help you? Because my team, we write hundreds of job postings every single month.

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0:42:18] I know this talent market better than anyone. And then this is the cool part. By the end of the session, you not only walk away with that advice, but you walk away with a job posting in hand. We rewrite your job posting from beginning to end in that one hour session. So, you know, you have the job title, right.

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0:42:35] And you know what to do if it doesn't work because I'm a planner and I'm very type a, I will give you the, if this, then that, that, that, that that. 

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0:42:46]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:42:46] Yeah.

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0:42:47]Cool. So that gives us a plenty of options. We've got the kind of the DIY version. And then we have the ability to work with someone that has true expertise in this space. And not just you, but you have a team behind you. So. There's a lot of a lot of knowledge and experience there.  So cool. So I'll definitely include everything that you just shared. We'll include that in the show notes.

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0:43:07] So there might be people listening that are  ready and, you know, excited to post their first posting or their first quality posting that they've ever posted. Or some people are just going to literally, I hope bookmark this episode kind of put it in their back pocket and say, when the time comes to write that hire cause I'm not, I'm just not, I'm not quite there yet. They're going to know exactly where to go and who to call. Cause like you said, I don't know anyone else that I've talked to that A has experienced in this world and B like, that is what they do. Right? So this is what you do. And so there's there, isn't a better resource out there than to go through these guides or put a call on the calendar and do one of these job re-write sessions.

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0:43:45]But Katrina, thank you so much for being on this episode. There's a ton of value here. Is there anything else that you want to share with us before we close up?

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0:43:52] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:43:52] I mean, I'm the only Katrina Kibben in the world. So if you spell my nameright find me. 

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0:43:56]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:43:56] Got it. But again, thank you so much. It was really exciting to chat with you today. And I know that you're gonna help a lot of people that are listening. So thanks again. 

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0:44:04] Katrina Kibben: 

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0:44:04] Thank you. Appreciate it, Sean.

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0:44:06] 

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0:44:20]Sean Pritzkau: 

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0:44:20] All right what a great episode with Katrina Kibben. Like I mentioned into the opening of the show, I'm actually in the mindset of hiring right now. In my business, there's a lot of hats that I wear and I'm looking to build something that really goes beyond me, right? So I'm writing two job descriptions.

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0:44:35]So I am going to follow to a T everything that Katrina just said because I want to hire the right people. And get qualified people. And I want the process to be as painless as possible. Right. I don't want to interview 50 applicants that aren't the right fit.

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0:44:50] I want qualified people that have the skills and talent, but also that care about people and the planet and care about the kind of things that we work on as a company. So I'm literally going to follow these things to a T and even if you're not ready to hire, I hope that you at least go to Katrina's website, sign up for their email list and just keep an eye out for what Katrina's doing because when you are in the spot to hire, I can't imagine a better guide or resource to help you along the journey.

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0:45:19]So I'm really excited for next week's episode with Dale Wilkinson. Dale is the founder of Goodgigs. Who helps mission-driven companies connect with people who want to use their skills for good. And he's also the host of the Goodmakers podcast that helps listeners live their purpose through interviews with social entrepreneurs and change makers.

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0:45:40] So definitely, definitely listen to next week. And if you have yet to leave a review for the podcast, it would mean the world if you would jump on to Apple Podcasts, on to iTunes and leave a short review, let me know you're listening. Let me know particular guests that maybe you really liked, or if you really liked Katrina's episode, tell us what you learned.

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0:45:58] That would really help us grow the reach of this show. We're on episode 10 and it's been amazing how many people have been listening to this podcast and I know there's people out there who are looking to start, grow, and scale companies with purpose so leaving a review would be really helpful in that mission. So, thanks again, and I'll see you next week.

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